Today on the Gut Health Reset Podcast, we are diving into a discussion on your microbiome and covid infection with Dr. Sabine Hazan! Dr. Hazan has tested, researched, and treated over 2,000 patients with COVID, spanning across all ages and genders, some vaccinated, some not. The microbiome provides the answers to what your gut says about you – how to treat Covid and how to understand why some people get sick and others do not.
In this episode, we will discuss viral infection, testing methods, the gut microbiome, bio-individuality, and more with Dr. Sabine Hazan!
We answer these questions:
– How does covid affect the microbiome?
– Why should we move beyond a “one size fits all” approach to medicine?
– Why is blood testing and antibody testing for covid so important?
– What can we do to boost our helpful gut bacteria?
– Why does bio-individuality matter?
– And more!
Still want to learn more? Schedule with Dr. Barter today!
Enjoy our previous episode with Dr. Mark Pimentel: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-ultimate-guide-to-overcoming-ibs-with-dr-mark/id1478167193?i=1000540864777
About Dr. Sabine Hazan:
Dr. Sabine Hazan is a renowned gastroenterologist and researcher, creator of ProgenaBiome, a state-of-the-art genetic research sequencing laboratory, and author of Let’s Talk Sh!t. Recently, she released a groundbreaking study on Covid and how it can alter the microbiome.
As a specialist in gastroenterology, internal medicine, and hepatology, Dr. Hazan has used her expertise in many regards over the last two decades. Dr. Hazan is also the Founder & CEO of the Malibu Specialty Center and Ventura Clinical Trials, where she conducts and oversees clinical trials for cutting-edge research on various medical issues. Dr. Hazan is a top clinical investigator for multiple pharmaceutical companies, and also acts as the series editor of Practical Gastroenterology on the microbiome, a peer review journal that reaches 18,000 gastroenterologists. She was and is a speaker for World Congress of Digestive Disease, MAGI, Microbiome Congress, International Drug Discovery Science and Technology Conference and NIST (National Institute of Standards and Technology).
Her book: https://amzn.to/3AjNG4B
Her website: https://progenabiome.com/
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Dr. Ann-Marie Barter is a Functional Medicine and Chiropractic Doctor at Alternative Family Medicine & Chiropractic. She is the clinic founder of Alternative Family Medicine & Chiropractic that has two offices: one in Longmont and one in Denver. They treat an array of health conditions overlooked or under-treated by conventional medicine, called the “grey zone”. https://altfammed.com/
Dr. Sabine Hazan: And unfortunately, we’ve been in this trend in medicine to just one pill, one formula for all. But what we discovered from the microbiome is we’re all different. And if we’re all different, how can we all use a one pill, one formula for all? It doesn’t work.
Intro: Are you struggling with bloating, gas constipation and fatigue, but don’t know what’s causing these problems? The Gut Health Reset Podcast with Dr. Ann-Marie Barter dives deep into the root causes behind these issues that start in the gut. This podcast will give you the knowledge you need to heal your gut and reset your health.
Dr. Ann-Marie Barter: Dr. Hasan, I am so excited to have you on the podcast today, we are going to drill into some topics that people are not talking about.
Dr. Sabine Hazan: Thank you, thank you for having me. I’m excited.
Dr. Ann-Marie Barter: Well, you have been doing a lot of work with with research studies, with clinical trials. Most of the I think all through the FDA, if I’m correct on that.
Dr. Sabine Hazan: Yes, I’ve I always kind of joke and say, you know, there’s something wrong with me I play with. I’m in the lab analyzing feces with COVID. I have the FDA watching me every minute and then I’m in bed with pharma because I do clinical trials for pharmaceutical companies on the same side. So there’s definitely something wrong with me. But I’m a hardcore researcher and this is what I love doing.
Dr. Ann-Marie Barter: That’s incredible. And you have done some amazing research on COVID and the microbiome, and I really want to drill into your I think it’s your latest research paper. Is that correct?
Dr. Sabine Hazan: Yes. Yes. So we actually we have. So last year, my first focus when I realized that COVID sits on ACE2 receptor, I started thinking, Well, where is the biggest body of ACE2 receptors, the virus? So it’s got to be in the stools. And I also know that, you know, having looked at my stools in over a couple of thousand stool samples, everything ends up in the gut. The lotion you put in that’s contaminated with, you know, staph aureus ends up in your gut. The lotion, whatever you’re eating, ends up in the gut, whatever your breathing ends up in the gut. So I needed to look at the stool samples and look at the feces. And early on, I actually told the National Institute of Standards Jackson. I said, You’ve got to look at the feces. And I sent him this paper from China that was my first focus and my obsession with that. And he started thinking, what we need to look at the feces and that started the whole septic tank looking at septic tank for COVID 19. My paper then became because, of course, at the beginning we needed to validate it. We need to make sure we were doing the right thing. And I told my scientists it was kind of funny because we were in March or April collecting stools and I got to collect stools of COVID patients.
Dr. Sabine Hazan: So I started writing these protocols for the FDA to approve them, thinking, you know, I’m going to treat patients and how am I going to treat them? And I’m going to put these protocols, but I need to collect stool. So the first, like in March, we started collecting stools because we had the kids who were already. And we stopped and my scientists said, You’re wasting a lot of money. You’re not going to find anything. And I said, Well, you know what, if we don’t look, we’re not going to find. And I remember the day before you said, you’re probably going to find 20 percent of the stools excavated there. I find it’s it’s still good data, right? So then the day of the findings, you said a hundred percent of the stool samples we analyzed had COVID. In other words, everybody that was symptomatic and we had a nasal swab positive had COVID in their stools. So, you know, at the beginning, that was a small paper because, you know, that was an expensive study. And of course, we published it. I think in July, it took till February to get to publication and passed peer review process and to the point that even the paper wanted the show to look at it to see make sure it was validated because I always say all research needs to be valid, verified and reproducible. That’s why you don’t see too much of my stuff out there until I have like the heads of academic center.
Dr. Sabine Hazan: My friends look at it and say, You know what? It’s we’ve criticized it enough. Then after that, they agreed to put their names on it. And then I put it through the peer review process. So we found COVID in the stools in last July. I mean, we found that way before, but we published it in July. Of course, it takes always takes a long time to write these papers. And and then we we got published in February and now for while we were looking at COVID in the stools, we said, Well, let’s keep smoking. And of course, you know, we’re up to 4000 samples and we find COVID inevitably all the time. We even find COVID in those people that we weren’t suspecting. Colvin. Right. So, you know, the vaccinated person that thought that they weren’t, you know, that they were fine. We had it, you know, the knockbacks, everybody that some, some people that are asymptomatic. So when we found out, we said, What is that? What is COVID doing in the gut to the microbiome?
Dr. Sabine Hazan: And that was the second paper that I saw. I shifted my my my direction from, you know, while I’m treating patients, I’m juggling a lot of meals at once. I shifted my direction is that we got a published finding the lost microbes of COVID 19, and I specifically called it that because, you know, there’s there’s been a book that was written on the lost microbes and and because that was the awareness right on the microbiome, that was your. Where does that told us? Know there’s something going on when we take antibiotics? So we looked at the microbiome of patients with COVID, and the paper from China came out before us showing our data. Right?
Dr. Sabine Hazan: So I said, Well, let’s look now as other people because we have collected families of COVID, right? So if one family had COVID, we collected all the stools. We collected the stools of the people that were exposed to COVID and the people that were not exposed to COVID. So. So I said to myself, you know, to check to look that that’s great. We produce what I’m saying, right? Which was low bifidobacteria, low fat, a little bacteria and a little diversity. Let’s show whether those people that were exposed to COVID, but never had it had the opposite formula. And that’s what we found. We found people that were exposed. So we took we had 20 patients. And you know, the criticism is always, well, it’s it’s just a small number. But unfortunately, these stool samples are extremely expensive, like 3000 to 4500 dollars for analysis and for evaluation and going through pipelines, et cetera. So we basically looked at the stools, we found COVID, we looked at the microbiome, we analyzed the microbiome and we realized that the microbiome of COVID that we’re exposed but not didn’t catch COVID and were antibody negative. In other words, they never got the disease or anything had a higher beta of bacteria, and a higher fans will go back to impress at a higher diversity than the people that were exposed and had it and were severe within the same family. Right. And so that said, the premise of maybe this is a microbiome, maybe we’re looking at is completely different.
Dr. Sabine Hazan: Maybe it’s not genetics that are protecting us. Maybe it’s what’s in our gut, what’s living in our gut? And then you start applying the medications you’ve given through the pandemics on your treatments and you look at the before and after and you start seeing well, is the virus eradicated? Because now remember, we have a stool assay that shows the virus and then we have a stool assay that shows the virus disappears. So depending on what that stool assay shows, whether it disappears, it’s like having a water on your hand and zapping it what you did before you zapped it. It disappears. Well, that’s successful treatment, right? So my goal is to basically treat as many people look at the stool before and after and see what’s working right and and how is hydroxy your or other drugs, remdesivir, Regeneron, Gilliard, the new Merck treatment. How is that working on the stools to kill the virus first? Because now we have an assay that shows it kills the virus. But then on top of that to on the bifidobacteria, what is it doing?
Dr. Sabine Hazan: Because it’s a two pronged right? It’s you have to kill the virus and you have to boost your immunity. You can’t kill all of it. And unfortunately, we’ve been in this trend in medicine to just one pill, one formula for all. But what we discovered from the microbiome is we’re all different. And if we’re all different, how can we all use a one pill, one formula for all? It doesn’t work.
Dr. Ann-Marie Barter: That’s a really great explanation. What have you found with the medications to help COVID patients?
Dr. Sabine Hazan: No, nothing I can really discuss because we’re still analyzing. Remember, it’s all research and discovery. I always joke and I say, I’m going to be the last train at the station when everybody has failed. So be cut and I’ll come out and you know, we’ll still be in a pandemic five years, six years from now. Hopefully not, but we’ll still be. And they’ll say, I wonder what Dr. Eason’s doing with the microbiome. And that’s probably what I come about as the last change. You know, I just think we are. We went one plan and we put all our eggs in one basket, and probably we should be looking at a second plan and Plan B. And so you’ll see me on Twitter saying it’s time for Plan B is it’s time for Plan B yet because I think, you know, part of the reason we’re so divided, it’s not because of the politics, it’s because people feel in their gut that, you know, plan it may not work for them or or Plan B may not work for them. You know what I mean? We’re divided because it’s not a one pill or one formula for all. We’re all different. This is humanity coming out and and screaming, I want to be hard. I want to be. I’m different. My body is different. I want to take a chance on Plan A or Plan B. We’ve got to respect humanity. We’ve got to respect freedom of choice. That’s the number one law of ethics. And the fact that we’re not, you know, we’re kind of told to just do one way. That’s why you’re having a revolution right now. I mean, that’s the best way that I can call it is a revolution.
Dr. Ann-Marie Barter: That’s a that’s a great explanation, I think, to what’s going on and the underlying, I think we sweep it under the rug and say we’re different politically. But I mean, I hear this day in and day out and I think you hit the nail on the head with what’s going on out there because that’s that’s what I have people disclosed to me.
Dr. Sabine Hazan: Everybody, you know, whether they’re Democrats or Republicans, they all come to me and I have a gut feeling and this is your microbiome talking, so you got to pay attention. You know, everything happens for a reason. Actions leads to a reaction. And unfortunately, if we don’t pay attention to the action or the reaction, we’re going to lose and we’re going to, we could lose humanity, especially if we’re going on a one off.
Dr. Ann-Marie Barter: Let me ask you this there. We have some people that have they they they contract COVID and they end up with COVID long hauler symptoms. Do you have any indication of what’s going on in the microbe biome when somebody actually comes up with system?
Dr. Sabine Hazan: So we’re going to be publishing that data, so I’m not going to be putting it out there too much, but it’s definitely in the microbiome. And you’ll always hear me say the microbiome tells the story because it does tell the story. It does show you a difference in the microbiome that you know when you analyze in large quantity these patients you start seeing at the beginning, you know, 10, 20, 30 patients. But when you’re up to 100 long haulers, it becomes more of a picture. You know, it’s interesting because I had two people today who thought for sure they tested positive for antigen and PCR for COVID. They had all the classic symptoms. And I’m talking to the wife and I said, you didn’t. You didn’t develop an antibody response for COVID, IgG and IGA more negative. And she said, Well, that’s impossible. I’m like, Well, those two thoughts, right? So it’s either you didn’t develop an antibody response because you don’t have the way the ability to develop the antibody response or this was a false positive for COVID. And you know, basically, you know, that wouldn’t that would have not that we need to repeat the test, in other words, in one month. Then I tested her husband in the house. Same exact thing. You didn’t develop an antibody response. So when you have two people, it’s no longer an end of one. Right?
Dr. Sabine Hazan: So coincidental, finding it’s now it’s two people that makes your hypothesis that maybe it wasn’t the virus COVID to begin with in her, but she just tested falsely positive for COVID and then she just resolved and but then develop an antibody response. So there’s two reasons she probably will develop a T-cell response. But if you repeat a COVID IgG IgG and then the T cell responses negative, one has to wonder what’s happening right? Is that this patient? Can we really categorize that person as having had COVID? So that’s why I think blood tests and antibody testing is very important to add to the question, and we should have been doing antibody testing the whole time. I mean, blood test, I think is it? It adds one more clue to the to the to the pandemic. You know which patients tested positive with COVID by PCR and antigen testing and ended up not having an antibody response or a T-cell response and was not really COVID.
Dr. Ann-Marie Barter: So many people struggle with bloating, bowel issues, brain fog, fatigue. You might not even have any gut issues, but did you know the cause of it could be food sensitivities or gut infections? What I have done is I have brought a talented functional nutritionist into my practice. We have very similar training in the nutritional world. And her name is Alexis Appleberry. She is awesome. So you can head on over to our website, AltFamMed.com And have a consultation with her and schedule so that she can help you get to the root cause of your problems.
Dr. Ann-Marie Barter: And what do we do? So someone tests positive for COVID and they have major symptoms associated with COVID. What do we do to boost up the bacteria that actually protects us from COVID?
Dr. Sabine Hazan: So we’re all in research and discovery right now, everything. So we first discovered which took so long COVID in the stools and we can kind of we’ve seen other people coming out with it. So it’s great because it validates the work. It reproduces the data down. We’re seeing that there’s lost microbes in COVID, which is great because you’ve seen the data from Japan, which also shows potentially colon Zell is a bacteria, right that could help. And then we’ve also seen data from Korea and China that also shows this loss of digital bacteria.
Dr. Sabine Hazan: Right now, the big question becomes How do you replenish shot? And that’s a tough question. And let me just tell you, I’ve been at this since well, since March, really and actually probably before. Because if you recall, I do a lot of clinical trials on on the microbiome and diseases, and one of the findings is in autism, for example, was loss of bifidobacteria. So obviously, it’s not that simple to replenish the bifidobacteria. It’s not a probiotic over the counter.
Dr. Sabine Hazan: We’ve definitely we’ve published a paper that showed that actually, if you take the wrong probiotic, you can also kill your microbiome. So I caution everyone that’s taking these over-the-counter. A lot of patients that are developing COVID were on probiotics that were over the counter, so I’m not sure if it’s a dead bacteria in the probiotic. I’m not sure if it’s a if it’s a probiotic. I certainly raised that issue with the National Institute of Standards, which saw Jackson because I showed him that data and I said, Look, you know, all these products, you know, there was a great study that showed that 16 out of the 17 products on the market does not even have this little bacteria in there. So people are taking these products and they’re saying, Oh, these are bacteria. Let me just swallow it for all you know, it’s not. And then it kills your your microbiome, vice versa. There’s a very interesting paper that I’m going to be publishing, which is products over the counter. So I’m not going to say anything, but let’s just say that products over the counter, unfortunately, 15 products we tested, three of them had this little bacteria in there. So it’s scary when you’re drinking or eating your, you know, your milk or your key phone, you’re thinking, OK, well, is there are bacteria in there and it may not. It may be a contaminated batch. It may be not so real.
Dr. Sabine Hazan: So, you know, it is not that straightforward. There’s a lot of data out there and a lot of noise that’s trying to sell products. And unfortunately, that noise can hurt your microbiome. And so, you know, the best advice I can give people is, you know, obviously boost up on your vitamin C, vitamin D and make sure you’re decreasing your stress. A lot of alcohol.
Dr. Sabine Hazan: So what does alcohol do? You know kills it sterilizers your counter, right? So a lot of alcohol is probably not a good idea. You know, exercising common things. So the same way we published a paper where we took fat and gave it to a mouse and the mouse became obese, which we knew, right? We knew if you eat fat, the mouse, you’re going to gain weight, right? So but when you see the microbiome changes, when you feed the mice fat, then you have a second thing that basically says, I’m on the right track and this is we need to focus and pay attention to the microbiome.
Dr. Ann-Marie Barter: What type of fat did you feed the mouse?
Dr. Sabine Hazan: That’s a long experiment that I’m not going to get into what kind of knowledge? But basically, you know, beware of bad. Beware of, you know, exercise vitamin D. Be outside to expose yourself to the microbiome. There’s definitely enough data out there that shows that kids that played in school in the garden and started touching the microbes were healthier. The kids that stayed in the classroom and got sick with infection with ear infections. So I think, you know, the lesson from the microbiome is stop the killing and start building bringing the microbiome. And I think that’s a lesson for humanity to begin with.
Dr. Sabine Hazan: You know, I think the other lesson from the microbiome is diversity, right? It’s not if you’re eating the same food over and over and over again and you have a neurological problem or something, maybe you ought to ask yourself. Maybe eating that toast and peanut butter every day all day is not a good idea, right? So I think we have to diversify our diet. We have to bring in more diversity in the gut. But it’s not as easy. Once you were, you’ve destroyed it. I mean, we could see what we learned from C. diff and Clostridium difficile as the bacteria that got us into this world of the microbiome. You know, if you just see this, they tried to kill her for years. I mean, it was in those clinical trials. For years, I tried to kill that, but I’ve done every single clinical trial on this, from antibiotics to monoclonal antibodies to the fecal material in a capsule that’s just coming out to the spores for that. So and come to find out the answer for C. diff is not killing the microbiome, but actually replenishing it. But good luck finding a good microbiome when you wipe out the microbiome of humanity. It was already tough before COVID to find a good microbiome. So, let alone now, it’s even harder. The reason I said some of my patients were my donors and we have a paper coming out that we had a couple of donors that were vaccinated. We found COVID in the stools. I’m scared to use those guys as donors because I just don’t know if the virus is active or inactive or what’s going on there. So, you know, so it is difficult.
Dr. Sabine Hazan: It’s going to be difficult to get a good stool bank in the future for fecal transplant. But we need to pay attention to the fecal transplant, which is the process of making stools from a healthy donor, which is microbes, tons of microbes and putting it in an unhealthy with C. diff and basically ninety nine percent of the time resolving C. diff. So we’ve got to pay attention to that and see this. It’s very much like COVID in a way, because what have we found in cope with this appearance of the vaginal bacteria disappearance of the fast bacterium, but need see loss of approaching loss of diversity? You know what happens with the second case of COVID? What happens with the third case, et cetera that needs to be looked at? So, so many questions. And so I have all those questions. That’s why I don’t come with anything that’s concrete. I mean, I just see what I I’m going to speak about things that have been reproduced. Certainly, we found COVID in the stools. People are using it in the septic. It’s validated, verified and reproducible. I was on the right track. Lots of microbes is coming out now. It’s up to people to try different test, you know, to kind of just say, Well, is this probiotic working and and work together to say, is this probiotic working on the gut? Is it the answer? Is this medication working at eradicating COVID is not the answer. I think there needs to be a little bit more thought process in these in these studies. I’ve been doing clinical trials for twenty five years. Certainly, I’ve seen enough protocols three hundred plus to know how to write a protocol, how to criticize a protocol, to know. I just think that’s the answer. We need to get a quick product. Sometimes you got to just stop and not come out so fast and just analyze all the ideas and analyze and and do the research methodically so that you don’t miss anything. So you ask all the questions. And I just think we’ve rushed because we were scared of COVID that were we didn’t. We’re still back to square one because we just sometimes you just got to stop and stop the panic and just say, OK, let’s think this through, you know? And certainly, I think, a big part of the revolution. I like to cause some people to survive, you know, and are doing great and they haven’t caught it. So those people have questions. Maybe the microbiome is the question, you know, and some people, you know, didn’t have many symptoms.
Dr. Sabine Hazan: Those are the people we really need to look at, the people that are asymptomatic, the, you know, healthy microbiomes, I like to call them. I think you saw me on Twitter. Maybe, maybe not. I talk about the gold duke. Well, that’s what the gold poop is, right? You put that person. That’s what I think about it. That’s how immunity started being thought of when they took, you know, at the beginning of vaccines. And they figure it out well. You can take a bacteria and put it in in in very and kind of put injected in a child. And then you take that child and put it in a room with a patient with measles and the kid doesn’t get measles. Well, that was the experiment. Of course, we can’t do these experiments now because that’s safety and patient protection, etc. But the reality is you’ve got to look at what makes a person healthy. Fifty one Hepatitis C, by the way, what got us to answers with hepatitis C and finding what you guys see is really understanding the people that even though they were exposed to Hep C never got to have C. What was it in their immunity that? Give them that antibody that survived it, and that’s how we figured it out. So I think we need to look at COVID with let’s look at the people that are not catching it. Let’s pay attention to this to the people that are, you know, naive in a way that I’m not taking all these meds that have not been vaccinated, that you know, the virgins in a way. Why haven’t they caught it? What’s the answer in them? What’s the secret? That’s what I’m interested in.
Dr. Ann-Marie Barter: Do you have any idea?
Dr. Sabine Hazan: I have some ideas, you know, but I’m not going to say anything. I’m kind of like, We’ll see. I it. It’s all in the microbiome. I really think, you know, this path wouldn’t have opened to me if I wasn’t going to find answers. You know, when you open a door and answers start coming and people start coming to you, you know you’re on the right path. I’m just continuing to pop. I mean, I’ll be right. I may be wrong, but I got to look. I mean, that’s my, you know, God put me on this path with this zero research company that has done over 300 trials for pharma and then a genetic sequencing lab that’s spearheading the microbiome. And we found red in the stores and lost microbes. Maybe there’s something there, you know, maybe got to keep going, right? So that’s what I’m doing. I’m just a train. I’m just driving. I’m not paying attention to the haters, to the critics. I’m just driving. I just want to see it. If anything, I just want to see it for me to know that, you know what I write, I was right. You know, it’s kind of I’m happy about that.
Dr. Ann-Marie Barter: Yeah, and what is your thought on, you know, we’ve talked about probiotics a little bit. What’s your thought on prebiotics?
Dr. Sabine Hazan: Well, prebiotics are good data. I mean, it’s definitely safe. It’s it’s good. There’s of course, I’m always more of a host of foods that give you the prebiotics pushed the foods that give you the probiotics. You know, I’m more of a not a natural in the sense that I like to know who my farmer is. I like to know where my cow milk is, you know, so I’ll be friends with the farmer. But that’s just me. I mean, I’m just, you know, I of course, I’m analyzing stools to look for COVID. So of course I’m going to like, be super critical of the milk I’m drinking. So I just I think we need to just be vigilant.
Dr. Sabine Hazan: And that’s that’s what it’s all about. It’s vigilance, right? I mean, look at the Amish communities, right? They’re doing amazing. Why? Maybe their way is the way right there, their lifestyle, their way of doing things, farming, et cetera, is the way. So I mean, look at the, you know, central Africa. You know, why don’t they have a high rate of cancer? Why don’t they have a high rate of of autoimmune process seeds? You know, they’re in the ground with their microbiome. They’ve kept their microbiome pretty intact. We have sterilized ourselves so you can live in a sterile environment, right? But as soon as you leave that sterile environment, you’re going to get sick.
Dr. Sabine Hazan: So myself, eating all the foods that are clean and in my environment, you know, if I go to Mexico and I start eating foods, I’m probably going to get sick because I’m not used to that water. I’m not used to that environment. So my body needs to adapt. And I always give this example of, you know, having gone to a restaurant in Venezuela where the the restaurant, they were feeding these tomatoes and they were washing the tomatoes in this in this lake where the ducks were having their beans. And I didn’t know that. But I’m here. I am eating my tomato, right? And then I want to wash my hands because I don’t even want to use the horse sauce in the middle of nowhere. And I didn’t want to use the force I was eating with my fingers.
Dr. Sabine Hazan: And then I’m I’m asking, Oh, where can I go? Wash my hands and they bring me in this pond and docs are just having their beans and I’m like this. And of course, a week later, I had Giardia and I was pretty sick from it. So, you know, but how come those people survived right in that environment with those dogs and everything? And here I got super sick because I was transplanted to a different environment. So you got to be really careful to know that the differences in the environment, even, you know, we used to think that it was part of evolution and it is part of evolution. You know, the strong survive. However, you’ve got to kind of understand that if you’ve been accustomed to a certain environment and food for all these years and then you change that food, something’s going to change. I have a friend of mine, is a pediatrician, her family’s from India. They used to be traditional these traditional foods from India. And lo and behold, you know, the daughter, you know, develops, develop a cancer and then the mom develops the food. And that’s really, you know, that common celiac screw in in the Indian population, India in the population from India. And she said, to me, that’s impossible. I can’t have that. I can’t have celiac. And I said, Well, you’ve changed your diet, changed what you’ve been accustomed to. So I think there is some sense to it. Of course, it’s it’s it’s it’s hypothetical, but we have to pay attention to all these, you know, signs I like to call them. You know, when a Mexican person comes from Mexico and eats sushi and he starts to have indigestion problem, I have to pay attention when a Japanese person starts eating Mexican and they get bloated and they come to my office with digestive problems. I have to pay attention when a person that never eat bread, all of a sudden someone tells them, or you need to start eating seven grain bread, and then the patient develops gluten intolerance and solid group and the fill eyes are killed. You have to pay attention. That’s what change. I mean, you know, so much of medicine is being assigned. This is being a detective, right?
Dr. Sabine Hazan: You put all the clues together, and that’s all I’m trying to do is really put the clues because what fascinates me about medicine is not the constant doing of procedures. Colonoscopy after colonoscopy. In fact, I quit all that because it just wasn’t, you know, it wasn’t really me. I was OK. Well, I’m doing one more colonoscopy, removing one more polyp. It wasn’t getting us closer to the answer why colon cancer, why does a twenty nine year old kid whose parents and grandparents, the parents were seven years old, the grandparents were one hundred years old. The twenty nine year old developed metastatic colon cancer. How does that happen? Everyone in his family died at along age. So you’ve got to pay attention to these questions that basically say, Why is that? You know, here we thought it was genetics, but here’s a kid whose genetics were longevity, and now he has metastatic colon cancer. And why is colon cancer creeping up? Why is it in the people that are under 50 now? And why is it aggressive in the young when the young gets it? So I think if we don’t ask questions, if we don’t keep asking questions, we’re never going to find answers. And you know, my role on social media and doing these podcasts is really to challenge the narrative, the challenge to create scientists out of the people because we’re all scientists while asking questions. Science is about asking questions if we knew how to reproduce bloodlust, if we knew how to reproduce a human from from, you know, microbes, then I’d say, Hey, we’re one step closer to understanding life, but we haven’t even reproduced blood. You know, they’ve tried. They haven’t been able to. So to think that we know it all and that we, you know, we are above and beyond, it’s still all hypothetical. You know, one day the science is is real and the next day it’s not real.
Dr. Sabine Hazan: So, you know, I remember, you know, years ago we thought ulcers were from stress. And then Barry Marshall came up with. It’s a bacteria kill the bacteria. And then Dr. Pimentel at UCLA at Cedars-Sinai said, Hey, the bacteria, because the bacteria can be protective against reflux. And then somebody else wrote the paper that said, kill the bacteria because it’s pre-cancerous. So you know all these things? Here we are. And we still, you know, H. Pylori, you know, has gone from taught us a lot. They’ve taught us a lot. Think about it. Twenty five years, I’ve tried to kill the bacteria, only to figure out that I didn’t need to kill it. I just needed to suffocate it with more bacteria and fecal transplants that took twenty five years. So to stop research to stop progress. This is not a computer you’re turning on. This is not a recipe for grapes. Right? This is human beings. All different, all different fingerprints in all different microbiomes. And if we don’t think like that, we’ve lost the boat.
Dr. Ann-Marie Barter: So well said well said, and we’ll put Dr Pimentel’s episode below because we interviewed him all about. So he has been here. Well, I have just thoroughly enjoyed talking about COVID and hearing about this and listening to you, talk about challenging the science, challenging the narratives that are going on. I think that that’s really important. I think you’ve given us a very different way to look at COVID. So thank you so much.
Dr. Sabine Hazan: Thank you and thank you for having me.
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